honestly didn't know the main problem ppl had with the phrase "women and enbies" was that it excludes masc aligned enbies and trans men? i always thought it was cause it sorta feminized enbyness. like genderlessness in its natural state shouldn't be closer to femme than masc?

@myconidiosyncracy two sides of the same coin, really. masc enbies being excluded results in treating nb as inherently feminine and vice versa

the distinction doesn't seem to have much functional difference

@autistikai yeah i was actually justing sitting here going "wait both of my points is the same".

@autistikai also seems bothersome that exclusion of masculinity still indicates feminity, even in our community? like there are so many different types of id's that reject both? i think masc and femme are good terms and useful, but the way they end up getting pushed as a sort of secondary, softer binary is weird

@myconidiosyncracy personally fond of the stag/fox/swan division for this, but it's not very well-known and still only has so much room for not-a-binary-gender-presentation