@noelle one can accept that the stereotype exists without agreeing to it - it's a stereotype that has a lot of inertia behind it still, and has been going strong since the middle ages (when money-lending was considered usury, a sin, and thus all of the loans to be had were from the jewish outcasts).

offensive slang like "he jewed me" (meaning "he cheated me out of my money, giving me a bad deal that only financially benefits him") is still unfortunately common, even in the modern day.

@noelle in double-checking myself, https://jewishstandard.timesofisrael.com/the-money-libel-confronting-a-dangerous-stereotype/ seems to be a somewhat old article (2010, ref. the madoff case) but does interview some scholars on the subject, explain the history, etc. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/made-by-history/wp/2018/08/14/science-fictions-anti-semitism-problem/?utm_term=.f45b7fb5f2dd is an article that is more relevant to sci-fi and more modern/contemporary.

i'm not saying all star trek is cancelled or even all ferengi are now cancelled, but part of truly being a fan of something is understanding to not pass along the shit it stepped in, yknow?

@noelle basically if your evidence is "my jewish friends were fine with it, so, it is fine", it shows you're on the right track - sitting down and listening to the people who are affected. but i would urge you in this case to sit down and listen *more* to the wider jewish community, and to the scholars, rabbis, and rabbinical students talking about how the "greedy money-hungry jew" stereotype is currently hurting them and their communities - and to not just leave it as "my pals said it's ok".

@noelle tbh i think the logic check sometimes is "what are my feelings if it's something i'm not a fan of, and of a different group"

like if i was looking at, say, the new awful lone ranger movie, and how tonto is portrayed, would i be content with "a buddy said it's probably fine for depp to just have a bird on his head and talk in stilted english"? or would i go listen to more than just a friend, and listen to the community talking about how it hurts them and has done so historically?

@noelle i try to strive for the latter instead of the former, even when it's hard to really sit down and confront the fact that something i'm a really big fan of isn't perfect. i mean god. star wars. we could be here all fucking day with the first 2 hours just being a presentation entitled Oh God, Jarjar Binks. it's also not immune to "wait is this a jewish stereotype? ah shit" either.

but part of being interested in justice is not just letting shit pass because that's easier, yknow?

@noelle these things are allowed to fester because it's easier to just pass it on along. even - and especially - in shit we love. so sometimes it takes sitting down and listening to, for example, the jewish community talk about how the "money-hungry jew" stereotype - even reflected in scifi - hurts them, and believing them, especially in these modern times of alt-right youtubers prattling on about "international jewry globalism". ("jews = rich = controlling us" is alt-right dogma after all.)

@noelle so yeah, might be worth a tour around google to read some shit like https://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/stereotypes-in-united-states , https://www.jweekly.com/2013/04/12/jews-and-money-the-stereotype-the-history-the-reality-jccsf-series-explores/ , https://www.bh.org.il/blog-items/jews-money-anti-semitic-views/ , etc. - contemporary sources talking about how "jews are money hungry" was and still is very much a stereotype, and is something still impacting people today. it's especially a stereotype that has blood on its hands - a main economic motivator of many pogroms, massacres, and genocides.

@noelle you don't have to throw all star trek, or even all ferengi, in the bin forever because they're no longer morally pure media etc etc.

but you DO have to accept that "the money hungry jew" is a stereotype just as prevalent and vicious as the Mammy or the Jezebel for black women, etc.

it's real, and it's there, and it will continue hurting jewish people whether or not you want to recognize that it exists. you get to choose if you want to recognize it as a thing and work to stop it, or not

@noelle that logic doesn't hold water for me i'm afraid. it's not implying that jews really have that characteristic - it's reinforcing that this is the stereotype out there in the world right now doing people harm, which is true.

otherwise all discussion of stereotypes would end up being dismissed with "you're giving it credibility and doing harm".

we all know that the "sassy black lady" stereotype is harmful. calling it out is not reinforcing the idea that all black women are Sapphires.

@noelle tbh i'm not sure why you even came out strong with that argument. it's just a little "i am rubber, you are glue!" to me, far too reminiscent of "well you see, it's not racist because i'm colorblind~". it's some "he who smelt it dealt it" kinda logic that lets people sidestep tough conversations, especially when it comes to works that people are fans of and feel like they must protect.

basically, i think you can do a lot better and actually listen to jewish voices going "this hurts us".

@noelle if you're willing to dismiss it all with "well if you say this is making a connection to judaism, you're reaching and actually doing harm by connecting the two you know", ultimately you're also telling the jewish people speaking up about how this shit hurts them - even in something like sci-fi - to sit down and shut up because your enlightened opinion of "well actually THEY'RE the bigots" is more important. ...than the people telling you they're hurt by it.