using computers in 2024 as someone who used to use computers in 2004 is extremely frustrating and depressing
the people replying to this have no idea what i want back is msn messenger and macromedia flash
@LunaDragofelis @mavica_again Fucking yeah.
Thank fuck Linux exists because Mac keeps getting worse and Windows is just an absolute flaming dumpsterfire now.
But most people are stuck with Windows if they even know how to use real computers at all, even more people are stuck on phones and think it's completely normal to not even have a real filesystem...
@mjdxp the problem with trying to do that is that nobody follows you into it and then you're alone in an irc room while everybody else is on discord and for a social creature such as us it's very hard
@mavica_again @mjdxp As someome who has the same issue, I must say that IRL meetings help a lot.
@Anibyl i'll make sure to book plane tickets around the world
@mavica_again yeah this part sucks!
Heck, forget 2004, rewind back to 1994!
@lispi314@udongein.xyz
In 1994, proprietary computers (e.g. Commodore Amigas, Silicon Graphics [if you, or more likely your school or maybe employer because those things were insanely expensive] as just a couple of vendors which come to mind) were still pretty friggin awesome!
Linux existed in 1994 @IceWolf@masto.brightfur.net but Macs were worse than they are now. Windows was (and always has been, and always will be) a dumpster fire.
IMHO, Linux seemed like absolute knock off trash when you could have been running IRIX or SunOS or heck if you were really esoteric and fully of moneybags, you could still buy a Symbolics Lisp Machine related stuff in 1994 (the UX1200 VMEBus Board for Suns was 1990, the MacIvory III Nubus Board for Apple Macintoshes was 1991 and if you were INSANELY rich [e.g. my first college only had one DEC Alpha] you could run Symbolics' Virtual Lisp Machine emulator under Tru64 for OpenGenera goodness)
You weren't being spied on or manipulated for money by pretty much any of those proprietary vendors, amazingly.
You had to worry more about vestiges of convicted monopoly AT&T RBOCs maybe doing log correlation for your phreaking (which, really almost never happened. I remember my first employer after I graduated from University in 1999 getting mag tapes mailed to them from SBC for trying to trace fraud; and that employer didn't have ANYTHING to read such tapes, because they were a start up from the 1990s, not some legacy backwater entrenched monopolistic legacy remnant with hardware going back to the 1950s and earlier).
Candidly, while it still stinks that Commodore declared bankruptcy in 1994?
Having an AGA Amiga around then and being online was a grand old time.
AmiNet was, for that era, the largest online software repository to have ever existed!
IRC? Was full of folks, well, full enough. People had a clue too! Some (e.g. @scanner@apricot.social) I probably first crossed paths with on EFNet in the early 1990s?
Discord didn't exist.
Even commercial networks (e.g. Prodigy, CompuServe) were basically trash as contrasted with what you could find via IRC, NNTP, FTP.
The web? Had barely taken off. Nutscrape (sorry, Netscape) was just starting to gestate from the remnants of the much purer academia/research NCSA Mosiac, but if you happened to have access to a lab running NeXTSTEP on some 486 dx2 @ 66MHz that ran circles around an actual overpriced NeXT or dogshit slow NeXTstation Color Turbo? You could run something such as Omniweb and have a web experience that wasn't 100% garbage! (Probably still like, 80% garbage, but I remember one website with some anime still frames that if you scrolled at the right right in Omniweb, almost looked as if they were animating! Almost!). Anyway, since the web was still barely a thing, that meant that the advertisers and SEO and such hadn't turned it into a total dumpster fire too.
1994? Was it the apogee of personal computing? I dunno, but it was pretty close to that. I was not so fortunate, but a friend got an Amiga 4000/040 for xmas circa 1992 I think it was and his place seemed like the place to be. The kind of set up that made Doogie Howser, M.D. on TV with his Apple IIgs look like a chucklefuck chump. But that friend was way beyond 1337. Still is no doubt.
1994 wasn't all sunshine and roses. NetBSD existed but that is also when Theo got ejected from core, though thankfully that brought the world OpenBSD, which did eliminated so much of the low hanging fruit security holes that made UNIX systems better for compromising than they were to administer.
Srsly though, the vibes I had with an Amiga 2000, something like Terminus running, AmiTCP (a BSD derived TCP stack, natch), DeliTracker bumpin MODs, DiskMaster 2 (far more extensible than what web browsers were, from image displaying to hex editing and more) while running ncftp, telnet and more? Extremely good memories. Computing has rarely ever achieved that level of enjoyment before or since for me personally.
2004? sigh SILC still seemed promising at least. Almost everything else online has been consternation and damnation and I wouldn't mind seeing wiped out of existence.
@mjdxp@labyrinth.zone
CC: @mavica_again@computerfairi.es
A few tried, but most of the malicious behavior was tied to hardware.
Sad that the Lisp Machines died, and that some of the neat capability security systems died without attention. Both of those would make a lot of the current security woes impossible.
I never owned such hardware personally; but have at least been blessed to tinker with OpenGenera running in an AMD64/Linux emulation layer for the Tru64 release. Last time I met up with creepingfur (RIP) he was extolling the wonders of his MacIvory board to me too. No idea what happened to his hardware collection once he passed away. ;( Hopefully that stuff ended up in a good home.
CC: @scanner@apricot.social @mavica_again@computerfairi.es @mjdxp@labyrinth.zone @IceWolf@masto.brightfur.net
Srsly though, in 1994 the vibes I had with an Amiga 1200, something like Terminus running, AmiTCP (a BSD derived TCP stack, natch), DeliTracker bumpin MODs, DiskMaster 2 (far more extensible than what web browsers were, from image displaying to hex editing and more) while running ncftp, telnet and more? Extremely good memories. Computing has rarely ever achieved that level of enjoyment before or since for me personally.
@teajaygrey yeah, I think the mid-90s was as good as it got. The Internet had just started to become a household thing, and there was so much contagious optimism about the future of technology. Although in retrospect, it would be less than 10 years before the Internet would start rapidly become appropriated by a few tech companies that (at that time) were still new, like Google and Amazon, and not considered a threat by the powers-that-be, namely Microsoft.
The nice thing about microcomputers in the 1980s was that they were all simple enough that any one person could understand them from the operating system all the way down to the circuit level. With less than 1MB of memory to work with, your software was necessarily simple and small enough to be understood by a single person. It was possible for someone like Steve Wozniak to design the entire computer and most of it’s software all on his own.
Computers in the mid 1990s were an order of magnitude more powerful and more complicated, but still simple enough that a single person could reasonably understand the entire system. They were becoming more appliance like, but they were still quite hackable, and the Internet made it easier to connect to experts who could teach you how to do whatever you wanted with it. It was the 80s hacker mentality but with much more capable hardware at our disposal.
One thing I like about modern computers is the memory/storage capacity and network bandwidth. If computers could be as simple as they were in the 1990s but still be as fast and power-efficient as they are now, that would be an ideal situation for me. Alas, hardware specifications like USB, and software specifications like UTF-8 and TLS, make things very complicated.
@teajaygrey @lispi314 @scanner @mjdxp @mavica_again Nh, we weren't born in 1994 and I kinda like being able to do normal computer things with our computer. 1994 isn't quite as egregious as the "we should all go back to when you only had BASIC!" people, but still.
I'd say 2004-2006-2010-ish was probably the Good Times. You can see this in game consoles.
The Wii? Respects consent, doesn't force updates. The PS3? Respects consent, doesn't force updates. Mac OS 10.6 was vaguely around that time and didn't have the Gatekeeper crap. It was just an OS.
Jump forward a console generation and the PS4? Pushes updates extremely hard. The Wii U? FORCES updates, Windows style, IIRC. As for Windows? Yeahhhh. And Mac's got Gatekeeper now. It's all about eroding your control of your own devices.
(We have no idea what went on in Xbox land for any of this.)
@teajaygrey @lispi314 @scanner @mjdxp @mavica_again And yes, "doing normal things with our computer" includes internet things, because being able to meet other critters like us is Extremely Fucking Important.
The 1990s were only a golden age if you can find friends in dirtspace and don't need the internet.
Yet, computers being useful, while being offline, was more or less a given. Your discourse of the Wii not forcing updates? I mean, OK, but neither did the Dreamcast (which had the first modem built-in to a video game console), nor every other video game console for decades earlier.
So, if your stipulation is that forced updates are when the "bad times" began? I guess you might want to delineate the Wii-U and later eras? IMHO, as someone who was a Co-SysOp of a BBS which had a MUD (Multi User Dungeon) online gaming was always the pits. If a game isn't good offline, to me, it's not a good game.
Generally speaking, for resilience, I think systems (games or otherwise) should be possible to be utilized offline if they're meaningfully useful.
If I have to be online to utilize something, why?
GPS comes to mind: GPS predates online privacy invasive monitoring (e.g. Google Location Sharing is basically surveillance capitalism spying as a service; not something that has [m]any useful uses which don't cause more harm than good). A good GPS system will still function without an Internet uplink. A bad GPS system, will fail if it isn't online.
"if you can find friends in dirtspace" seems unnecessarily condescending if not downright disrespectful. I made friends in person, and online. If I am being honest, the friends I made online even in the 1990s were far and away higher caliber than those with whom I became acquainted with online post MySpace and so-called "social" networking which algorithmically "curates" feeds to be as divisive and confrontational as possible in order to maximize "engagement" so that surveillance capitalism vendors can monetize their users; making hostile "debates" the norm instead of flame wars being rare and usually avoided in previous forms of online discourse which were still common place and widespread, even if it was before you (or I) were born.
CC: @lispi314@udongein.xyz @scanner@apricot.social @mjdxp@labyrinth.zone @mavica_again@computerfairi.es
@teajaygrey @lispi314 @scanner @mjdxp @mavica_again Oh don't even get me started on the "online friends aren't real friends" thing, heh. (Or do, that's not literal.)
I take it you're human, and singlet, and not furry, and I have no idea about the statistics of your corner of fedi but maybe not queer? Point being, there ARE people around you that you can a) find and b) relate to.
When you[general]'re literally all of those things at once, like us? If we didn't have the internet, we /would not have friends./
That's not an exaggeration. I'd resigned myself to just being alone forever because I didn't even know there EXISTED other people in the world that were at all like me. I certainly had no words to describe what was missing.
@teajaygrey @lispi314 @scanner @mjdxp @mavica_again Oh, and "the internet" doesn't imply "manipulative social media algorithms". Exhibit A: Here! :3
Exhibit B: Forums and MUCKs and things.
As for work, one's coworkers are not one's friends (hypothetically some can be, yes) and it can be very risky to try that (backstabbing corporate culture is a special kind of fun⸮).
Anti-pedestrian car-centric suburbs with no meetings spots of any sort or any amenities that support really existing outside of one's home/fenced-backyard.
Sure in theory one could have community but... that requires sharing a third space, and those have been greatly reduced.
The entire car-centric paradigm would crumble because it's built on inefficient use of land.
And from there, it's not so hard to build community spaces above or below something else that can actually survive its costs. A community center or train station renting out stalls while providing free (or token fee, whatever) "cultural activities" spaces groups could register or use.
@lispi314 @amerika @scanner @mavica_again @IceWolf @teajaygrey Also land taxation systems don’t need to tax public places - indeed the underlying theory of land value taxes is that you’re taxing land because it has been removed from communal access.
@amerika @scanner @IceWolf @teajaygrey @lispi314 hi please untag me from this conversation
also i like my wii u :P
@mavica_again I love the MacOS 8 theme on your website. But for me, Mac OS 7.5 was the best Mac OS theming ever was.
@mavica_again Theoretically they're faster now, and easier to compartmentalize for security, which is good. But also all the native apps went away and everything goes through a web browser and VC money makes developers do insane things and it's terrible.
It performs better, some new & very neat packages have appeared and some of the UI packages also refined themselves. My experience on my own machine and LAN has not degraded.
@mavica_again 2004: Unpack computer, plug it in. Excitedly watch it boot up for the first time, until it's ready to go.
Start installing software that does cool stuff, add your collection of music, family photos, work files, etc.
2024: Unpack computer, plug it in. Turn it on, wait til it's ready to go.
Start turning off notifications, shutting down automatic videos, downloads, trackers. Before you browse anywhere Install an ad blocker & other privacy add-ons, VPN...
It's preparation for war.
@mavica_again I'm just tired of all the shoddiness. Teams, Jira, Confluence, Slack, pretty much everything Electron based, Windows in general, all that "Enterprise" software crap... all runs like dogshit. Optimized for someone's idea of "design" rather than usability. Built to make maximum profit rather than deliver maximum value. bleh
@kwramm not even that they all just solve the same problem and don't even offer anything else. if anything slack is a better "product" than discord is because you don't have to pay "premium" to bring in your own emoticons. but then again we already had that on msn messenger decades ago
@mavica_again they're just stuff corporate pushes on you because the CFO likes the price, the IT department can remote manage it, and the CEO heard everyone else is using it. Personally, I don't even need Discord.
@kwramm unfortunately everyone i know is there and status quo dictates they cannot leave for another platform
@mavica_again the everyday business of using a computer isn't fun anymore.
@mavica_again On the other hand, I can't remember the last time I had to download drivers to get something to work when I plug it in, not to mention keeping track of IRQ numbers for each device.
@mikemccaffrey it says something about modern computing that you're describing something i do today for fun
@mavica_again Glad that you find it fun. It was less so for me as a kid trying to get my soundblaster to work so I could actually play the new game I bought.
@amerika the phones aren't much better if you see the previous posts!
@mavica_again I remember using computers in 2004 too, frustrating and depressing but for entirely different reasons.
@nini sure, but i wouldn't yearn for it if things weren't this bad
@mavica_again god same. MSN messenger was fun. and Flash allowed for SO much creativity
@mavica_again if I can't send my friends a nudge or change my font/text color over social media then what's the point!
@mavica_again I'd rather not remember MSN messenger personally. I think my most memorable time with computers was the excitement of getting shareware/freeware CDs from magazines and checking out everything new on them
@Violet @mavica_again this, so this. And also MSN. Oh, and the noise of dial-up.
@mavica_again I can't even remember the last time I saw a flying toaster background. 😢
@mavica_again you and me both. Those were magnificent machines.
i didn't mean for this to blow up and with how activitypub works you'll never see this post but hey check out the stuff i do https://maple.pet
the above viral post was spurred on by not being allowed to send my friends doodles anymore, see: https://computerfairi.es/@mavica_again/113553227480258257