Free has never been free: Data mining, advertisements, data breaches. It's time to demand change to keep our emails safe! 💪😃
https://tutanota.com/blog/posts/webmail-good-bad-secure
@Tutanota hmmm
>We protect your emails from everyone - even from us! Forever free.
"free is not free! except for our free. you can trust us. pinky swear."
y'all know how strongly this smells of bullshit, right?
@wigglytuffitout Yes, we should call it freemium - that would fit better. ;)
@Tutanota oh boy i can't wait to pay for microtransactions to access my email
idk y'all, if you ain't forthcoming about actually reconciling your business model with the business model that you are heavily critiquing and lambasting as corrupt and inherently exploitative, well... boy, that sounds shady as fuck.
right now it just comes off as "tired of being exploited by big companies?! well here, we do things differently - you get exploited by a SMALL company instead! HOORAY!"
@Tutanota given that your entire business model is built on trust - trusting the company to not snoop, to not sell info, to really encrypt as much as promised - this coyness is not really serving y'all. if you want to actually succeed, tell us why your company is different, not just "we're different! trust us!" and no elaboration.
unless you're hella into self-sabotage i guess. in which case, there's probably easier ways to get that kink itch scratched, lol.
@wigglytuffitout You're welcome to check the code on Github: https://github.com/tutao/tutanota/
@Tutanota for the love of god y'all please put the official company social media on ice before you read one (1) whole book about marketing
i will wait for y'all to get to the chapter with the revelation that customers maybe don't wanna buy from a company that acts shady as hell and is evasive when concerns are raised
@wigglytuffitout @Tutanota you need to calm down and stop abusing tutanota staff. you are ranting at them and being rude. there's a human behind there who's reading you what you have to say, if you're upset that's fine but be considerate in your speech
@wigglytuffitout @Tutanota Ok it seems you lack social skills, if you want to engage in a discussion with somebody try not to belittle them from the get go.
@salsa20 @Tutanota i already know there's no chance of making them drastically rethink their entire business model.
that was a "i see the shit you're pulling. if it's obvious to me, it's even more obvious to others. shoo and get out of here, we've clocked you."
businesses don't get sweetly talked into giving up unethical actions. they get forced to give them up - by action that can include warning others of some bullshit afoot, and making sure that company is seen as a dismal failure.
@wigglytuffitout @Tutanota I hear what you're saying about comparing themselves with the mainstream but truthfully I'd rather a company encrypt my emails and fall short of a few things than openly admit to scanning my personal data, wouldn't you? I mean it's based on trust of course. That can't be helped unless you plan to self host, even then you'll probably self host using software that you haven't developed. There is going to some trust element somewhere...
@salsa20 @Tutanota by all indications, they're gearing up to be a terrifically shit job. and all they've really said is "trust us, we don't!".
after all, where do they get their money? if it's all free, and they don't use your stuff, then how do they keep the lights on? the hopes and prayers of orphans? you gotta clap your hands like believing in fairies?
especially when they lambast other free services for not really being free, but "uhhh just trust us" for the rest...?
that's a LOL from me
@salsa20 @Tutanota if there's no "we're supported by patreon, by your donations, by this foundation" clear and obvious - but yet, still, a company, with employees, with offices, with expenses, with servers you're using - then it's not really free, is it? they can't give it all away.
so either it's not really free in that there's some cool charges about to hit your account, or... they aren't as honest as they pinkie promise they are.
i don't trust like that. do you?
@wigglytuffitout @Tutanota I think there's some implications that come with "free service" especially when you put it into the context of a 'privacy service' and you're taking the information at face value. Maybe I'm biased since I use them and pay for the service. So I do trust them
@salsa20 @Tutanota well, at least that shows my point that their game is hitting you up for money later a la "free to play games". that, at least, is how they keep the lights on.
you'd probably do better than to trust folks that proclaim how they offer a free service and then, once your foot is in the door, hit you up for money as it suddenly becomes not-so-free.
i for sure wouldn't be confident to say they weren't doing the same takesies-backsies trick on promises of keeping my data secure.
@salsa20 @Tutanota this is a pattern that i'm seeing again, and again, and again, and again on this website.
a service is "free"! it's so ethical! it's made with open-source! it's so ethical! how is it ethical? well they say they're really very ethical. they pinky promise they're doing all these things. ethics!
and, inevitably, people buy into it with the idea that surely these noble tech bros can't lie to them.
then the tech bros smell profit.
@salsa20 @Tutanota most recent example?
purism! a very ethical service that would never share your data, except for those web apps having data trackers, including google's, in them. for months. whoopsie-daisy! and then it took the brave ethical stance of deciding that all moderation is bad, so despite it putting the rest of mastodon in danger, they were going to happily court neo-nazis.
because the alt reich has money. and they want that money.
super ethical! phwoar!
@salsa20 @Tutanota if all you're paying for is their *assurances* that they're doing the right thing - while the company itself acts in dodgy, shady ways, contradicting itself, double-dealing - i think we both know just how valuable those assurances *actually are*. do they actually deserve your loyalty? your defense? your trust? when they're out to dupe you in return?
and there's a phrase to consider as you continue on: "don't throw good money after bad".
@salsa20 @Tutanota well, you're paying for a free service, ain't you?
it's not my fault if you got duped by the web equivalent of a "get a free stay in a resort (as long as you listen to our sales pitch for timeshares)".
they aren't out to dupe you - they already did. you're giving them money, remember? more than that, you've given trust and blind loyalty.
in fact, they duped you so good that you're willing to immediately defend them and do a PR person's job for them. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@wigglytuffitout @Tutanota clearly there's a misunderstanding here, I'm not giving them free money... You do realize that premiumvoffers more than a free tutanota account, don't you? So I'm not paying for a free service, I'm paying for the extra features.
also what's wrong with paying somebody if they offer a service you want? Is that duping in your eyes too?
I've given trust but not blind loyalty, I don't know where you're pulling this from
@salsa20 @Tutanota the extra features, for a service you started using because it was... free.
free is never free. in this case, they made an investment on you with that "free" to get you in the door, to give them money. and hey - it was a good investment, since they've got you on the line for five whole years.
there ain't nothing wrong for paying for things you like. but a company that is playing that "oh it's free... until you get here" is not operating on high ethics.
@salsa20 @Tutanota it was free - until it wasn't, because that free was getting you in the door to upsell you. it's free in the same way a "makeover party" from the Avon lady is free.
i'd rather just go buy my makeup from a company that sells it to me directly instead of banking on psychological tricks and pressure tactics.
if they have such a loose idea of what an ethical free service is... you really trust them to handle your data ethically like they say they do?
LOL.
@wigglytuffitout @Tutanota tutanota is a business. a business' purpose is to MAKE MONEY, naturally they will find a way to be profitable. I don't understand why that's so uncomfortable. Yes they make money, as I said at the start there is an implication with the word "free". They even responded to you with call it "freemium". Their ethos is unpaid encrypted mail services with paid services for those who want it. It's not hard to grasp.
@salsa20 @Tutanota if they were stating prices up-front, i'd shrug and move on.
saying "free is never free... except for OUR free, because we're more ethical!", and then, well - it's all the same scummy shit currently infecting mobile games? that's what i object to. that's the moral failure here.
willingly subscribing to microtransaction funbuxx or tupperware party tactics as an Ethical Business Model (tm) is the shit that stinks, and you should be suspicious of.
trust me.
i'm Ethical. ;)
@wigglytuffitout @Tutanota I've revisited this entire conversation & frankly Im lost for words... they aren't unethical for offering services for money. I bet you there are lots of people using tuta for free for many years without needing to upgrade.
no offense but it seems you're living in a sheltered reality. people need money to live. This isn't shameful and the consumer has choice. Its email, not a lifestyle. Move on. Nice chatting to you.
@salsa20 @Tutanota like i just said, i don't mind giving people money for shit.
what i do mind is this bait-and-switch pricing scheme, of "free but only to get you in the door so we can pressure you into paying us money", being held as morally superior and ethical. a company can't expect to shit-talk the others as "not really free" when also doing the exact same thing.
i've said this... about fifteen times, so i think at this point you're just going "LA LA LA LA IT'S COMMIE PINKO BS I KNOW IT"
@salsa20 @Tutanota it never feels good to know you got duped.
but you did.
you're trusting in the ethics of a company that duped you.
by all means, you can give 'em money. but when i hand Pokemon Go two bucks in microtransactions, i know that it's not an ethical move on their part. and i know i'm paying for something more than ethics. i don't trust that company's ethics - they haven't earned that trust.
maybe sit down and have a think about if tutanota is as ethical as they say.
@wigglytuffitout @Tutanota they're not suddenly morally devoid for trying to make money
@wigglytuffitout @Tutanota let me address your point about drawing customers in then hitting them with subscriptions. I've been a customer for 5 years with them and they've operated for longer, wouldn't you think by now they'd have done what you said? Surely 5 years is long enough to penetrate the market?
Also could you help me understand how tuta is contradictory and shady? How are they out to dupe me, specifically?