@Tutanota oh boy i can't wait to pay for microtransactions to access my email

idk y'all, if you ain't forthcoming about actually reconciling your business model with the business model that you are heavily critiquing and lambasting as corrupt and inherently exploitative, well... boy, that sounds shady as fuck.

right now it just comes off as "tired of being exploited by big companies?! well here, we do things differently - you get exploited by a SMALL company instead! HOORAY!"

@Tutanota given that your entire business model is built on trust - trusting the company to not snoop, to not sell info, to really encrypt as much as promised - this coyness is not really serving y'all. if you want to actually succeed, tell us why your company is different, not just "we're different! trust us!" and no elaboration.

unless you're hella into self-sabotage i guess. in which case, there's probably easier ways to get that kink itch scratched, lol.

@wigglytuffitout You're welcome to check the code on Github: https://github.com/tutao/tutanota/

@Tutanota "and if you aren't a programmer you just gotta trust us! we still ain't gonna answer how the lights stay on lol"

yeah let me just get a computer science degree real quick so i can continue to completely be ok with your pinkie swear that the rest of the details are all above-board and you're totes m'goats doing exactly what you say you're doing. that sounds totally reasonable. i'm so glad that's literally the only response to concerns. very trustworthy lol

@Tutanota for the love of god y'all please put the official company social media on ice before you read one (1) whole book about marketing

i will wait for y'all to get to the chapter with the revelation that customers maybe don't wanna buy from a company that acts shady as hell and is evasive when concerns are raised

@wigglytuffitout @Tutanota you need to calm down and stop abusing tutanota staff. you are ranting at them and being rude. there's a human behind there who's reading you what you have to say, if you're upset that's fine but be considerate in your speech

@salsa20 @Tutanota i find a business selling itself on superior ethics while peddling bullshit to be pretty inconsiderate, lol

if they don't wish to face any criticism, the company will be best served by not posting on social media. i've also been downright restrained in my snark, to be quite honest.

if it bothers you, perhaps you'd like to block me. no amount of white knighting a company is going to make them love you more than they love profit, lol

@salsa20 @Tutanota honestly i'm struggling to see what is so horribly abusive that you think i am beyond the pale lmao.

is it that i cussed? you know people cuss on the internet, right? you can say 'fuck', it's not illegal or anything. really, it's okay

@wigglytuffitout @Tutanota Ok it seems you lack social skills, if you want to engage in a discussion with somebody try not to belittle them from the get go.

@salsa20 @Tutanota i already know there's no chance of making them drastically rethink their entire business model.

that was a "i see the shit you're pulling. if it's obvious to me, it's even more obvious to others. shoo and get out of here, we've clocked you."

businesses don't get sweetly talked into giving up unethical actions. they get forced to give them up - by action that can include warning others of some bullshit afoot, and making sure that company is seen as a dismal failure.

@wigglytuffitout @Tutanota I hear what you're saying about comparing themselves with the mainstream but truthfully I'd rather a company encrypt my emails and fall short of a few things than openly admit to scanning my personal data, wouldn't you? I mean it's based on trust of course. That can't be helped unless you plan to self host, even then you'll probably self host using software that you haven't developed. There is going to some trust element somewhere...

@salsa20 @Tutanota do you really think that this company - so obviously full of bullshit already, evasive about questions, and so on - is going to actually do what they say?

i mean, if i'm gonna get bamboozled, i'm going to at least look for somebody who can P.T. Barnam themselves into quasi-legitimacy. because if they're as good at encrypting as they are marketing, the only encrypting you're going to get is "we put all your emails printed out in the alley but, like, nobody goes there, yknow?"

@salsa20 @Tutanota by all indications, they're gearing up to be a terrifically shit job. and all they've really said is "trust us, we don't!".

after all, where do they get their money? if it's all free, and they don't use your stuff, then how do they keep the lights on? the hopes and prayers of orphans? you gotta clap your hands like believing in fairies?

especially when they lambast other free services for not really being free, but "uhhh just trust us" for the rest...?

that's a LOL from me

@salsa20 @Tutanota if there's no "we're supported by patreon, by your donations, by this foundation" clear and obvious - but yet, still, a company, with employees, with offices, with expenses, with servers you're using - then it's not really free, is it? they can't give it all away.

so either it's not really free in that there's some cool charges about to hit your account, or... they aren't as honest as they pinkie promise they are.

i don't trust like that. do you?

@wigglytuffitout @Tutanota I think there's some implications that come with "free service" especially when you put it into the context of a 'privacy service' and you're taking the information at face value. Maybe I'm biased since I use them and pay for the service. So I do trust them

@salsa20 @Tutanota well, at least that shows my point that their game is hitting you up for money later a la "free to play games". that, at least, is how they keep the lights on.

you'd probably do better than to trust folks that proclaim how they offer a free service and then, once your foot is in the door, hit you up for money as it suddenly becomes not-so-free.

i for sure wouldn't be confident to say they weren't doing the same takesies-backsies trick on promises of keeping my data secure.

@salsa20 @Tutanota this is a pattern that i'm seeing again, and again, and again, and again on this website.

a service is "free"! it's so ethical! it's made with open-source! it's so ethical! how is it ethical? well they say they're really very ethical. they pinky promise they're doing all these things. ethics!

and, inevitably, people buy into it with the idea that surely these noble tech bros can't lie to them.

then the tech bros smell profit.

@salsa20 @Tutanota most recent example?

purism! a very ethical service that would never share your data, except for those web apps having data trackers, including google's, in them. for months. whoopsie-daisy! and then it took the brave ethical stance of deciding that all moderation is bad, so despite it putting the rest of mastodon in danger, they were going to happily court neo-nazis.

because the alt reich has money. and they want that money.

super ethical! phwoar!

@salsa20 @Tutanota if all you're paying for is their *assurances* that they're doing the right thing - while the company itself acts in dodgy, shady ways, contradicting itself, double-dealing - i think we both know just how valuable those assurances *actually are*. do they actually deserve your loyalty? your defense? your trust? when they're out to dupe you in return?

and there's a phrase to consider as you continue on: "don't throw good money after bad".

@wigglytuffitout @Tutanota let me address your point about drawing customers in then hitting them with subscriptions. I've been a customer for 5 years with them and they've operated for longer, wouldn't you think by now they'd have done what you said? Surely 5 years is long enough to penetrate the market?

Also could you help me understand how tuta is contradictory and shady? How are they out to dupe me, specifically?

@salsa20 @Tutanota well, you're paying for a free service, ain't you?

it's not my fault if you got duped by the web equivalent of a "get a free stay in a resort (as long as you listen to our sales pitch for timeshares)".

they aren't out to dupe you - they already did. you're giving them money, remember? more than that, you've given trust and blind loyalty.

in fact, they duped you so good that you're willing to immediately defend them and do a PR person's job for them. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

@salsa20 @Tutanota after all, ain't you proof - with your being a customer, giving money to them for 5 years - that the whole thing is just as they said...

...free has never been free.

not even, as tutanota would have it, THEIR free.

you bought it hook, line, and sinker, my friend.