@danishcookies mocking, ridiculing and disavowing the identity behaviour of embracing their identity in a toxic way is and should be encouraged

mocking, ridiculing and disavowing someone simply for having an identity is inherently harmful behaviour

@PanicBomb
LMAO those aren't more "white" then how the Nazis describe them to be. The concept of whiteness literally doesn't even exist back then. Those who proudly claim it as "white" are just reactionaries.

@danishcookies you seem to think anyone you disagree with is a reactionary and we're clearly using modernised semantics, definitions and characteristics of identity
if you want to argue as a reductionist i'm sure that'll be very fun but it doesn't exactly apply to this conversation
no one is saying colonialist or nazi politics or identities should be treated with any amount of respect, so please do yourself and everyone else a favour and stop arguing a point with an imagined opposition

@PanicBomb
Proud of your Gaelic heritage, proud of your Celtic heritage, proud of your Italian heritage, proud of your Greek heritage. But none of them are intrinsically "white". People of color have lived on and migrated to Europe for god knows how long. Assuming they are all white makes you a nitwit at best and a reactionary at worst.

@danishcookies again, still not falling under modern definitions
when arguing against the grain of axiomatic politics we have to argue with another direction
it's woodwork, widdle the same direction and you end up with nothing or a sharp point, and neither is a useful tool for construction

when approaching the white identity you combat its comfort zone with the definitions it understands and is built on

@PanicBomb gaelic and celtic cultures are gaelic and celtic cultures, and how much effect they have on current european or north american cultures is up for debate.
there's been plenty of migrations which had an effect on culture, aswell as wars which regularly cause internal policing about what is accepted within a culture and what is foreign and evil because the culture you're at war with has similar aspects.

but an important thing to note is that 'white' culture is a relatively recent hoax.

@ladywolfheart agreed entirely, and very valid, but my entire point is built on modern and current definitions
i don't believe in attacking the root of something with purely pointed historical fact because it isn't something well-received

my overarching point here is that people don't attack white comfort for white comfort they attack it for "white"
by all means attack white comfort, it should be eradicated, and then we should deconstruct the imaginary identity of "white" as an umbrella

@PanicBomb i don't see the value in protecting white people's feelings by tone policing minorities.

if they complain about white people as a group, there is no problem. statistics point out that, yes, white people are a real problem for minorities. and if you know that and you actively try not to be trash, you can just nod along knowing they aren't talking about you.

if it's a specific white person they complain about, then it's a very individual case and talking generally doesn't help.

@ladywolfheart no one's tone policing anything, there's a difference between a tone and a clearly demonstrated pattern of behaviour
the behaviour is based on fact and executed in a poor way that far more often than not is not constructive, alienates less informed white people, and at the end of the day is still attacking people for a facet of their identity they have no control over

again; attacking behaviour is fine, attacking culture is fine, attacking skin colour is just reskinning toxicity

@ladywolfheart for some reason the point is constantly glossed over that there is an ability to mock, ridicule and attack oppressive cultures and identities in a way that is constructive
but it is not done in a constructive way, it is only done in an alienating way

within leftist and post-leftist circle going "white ppl are dumb" is fine but people who aren't aware of why people are saying that are approached in the same way and *what exactly is the lesson they should be taking from that*?

@PanicBomb they aren't supposed to take a lesson from that at all. if they want to learn they should go look for articles, discussion groups, books, pages that demonstrate they are willing to answer questions.

"white ppl are dumb" is just venting. no one can be expected to only ever say constructive meaningful things, that's an impossibly high standard to maintain.

@ladywolfheart and i think venting should be done in circles that will most understand, appreciate or listen to that venting but when approaching a toxic system we should be focused first and foremost on dismantling it

i feel like at some point i may have failed to communicate that i'm talking strictly of approaching whiteness in everyday life not personal musings to ones own self on it
(cont in next post i'm sleepy and taking forever to get to points and i'm sorry for that)

@ladywolfheart
I encourage people who have suffered at the hands of white people and white identity to vent their hearts out wherever possible, scream about it til your lungs give out, do what it takes to survive
but when approaching it with the intent to deconstruct or dethrone it approaching everyday people with hostility is just that--hostility. if the way you approach the topic is in no way constructive you'll receive an outcome that's in no way beneficial

@PanicBomb in no way beneficial to the white person in question.
but poc are constantly told their needs are secondary to those of white people already.
telling a rude or ignorant white person to fuck off on the internet or while off work can be an immensely relieving and affirming action to take if most of your life is spent just silently swallowing all the shit they throw at you.

@ladywolfheart that's an incredibly valid point i don't think i'd considered, you're right, and there really is no other or better way to fight identity-sourced entitlement because that entitlement corrupts the desire to learn or disavow
but (much to my chagrin to even entertain the concept) i think civility and honest ignorance should be treated with a certain amount of patience

it is also not the duty of PoC in anyway to educate white people, it isn't their job and shouldn't be expected

@ladywolfheart but I think the task of deconstructing a system is up to everyone, especially the people benefiting from that system

white people who fail to constructively attack whiteness as a system are contributing nothing, and i think it falls on us to take the lion's share of the work when it comes to deconstructing whiteness at its most comfortable spots (which is something i've recently had a lot of positive experiences and success in in my personal life and i feel really good about : D)

@ladywolfheart maybe my point should be better refined in a sense by saying that white people should be approaching less-informed white people with a more constructive frame of mind, your last point actually does have me thinking about how my initial approach might come off to poc as a "coddle white ppl pls" take and i appreciate your patience in helping me see that

@PanicBomb i think another important refinement would be that the less-informed white people should also be interested in listening and learning.
i have personally burned out after years of nearly daily engaging in discussions where i rarely felt like the other person was actually reading what i said.

there's nothing to be gained from wearing yourself out on someone who has no intention of changing, although now i feel like i'm hijacking the thread with a barely related message 😅

@ladywolfheart oh by all means feel free to, I'm extremely grateful whenever someone helps me see when I've been an ass lol
u hijack all u want and i'll love it

I agree though, I think people need to know their limits and the limits of who they're talking to. I just think without cautious optimism social change is DoA, that's a very "thats just me tho" perspective however bc I'm all sunshine and flowers