@salsa20 @Tutanota i find a business selling itself on superior ethics while peddling bullshit to be pretty inconsiderate, lol

if they don't wish to face any criticism, the company will be best served by not posting on social media. i've also been downright restrained in my snark, to be quite honest.

if it bothers you, perhaps you'd like to block me. no amount of white knighting a company is going to make them love you more than they love profit, lol

@salsa20 @Tutanota honestly i'm struggling to see what is so horribly abusive that you think i am beyond the pale lmao.

is it that i cussed? you know people cuss on the internet, right? you can say 'fuck', it's not illegal or anything. really, it's okay

@wigglytuffitout @Tutanota Ok it seems you lack social skills, if you want to engage in a discussion with somebody try not to belittle them from the get go.

@salsa20 @Tutanota i already know there's no chance of making them drastically rethink their entire business model.

that was a "i see the shit you're pulling. if it's obvious to me, it's even more obvious to others. shoo and get out of here, we've clocked you."

businesses don't get sweetly talked into giving up unethical actions. they get forced to give them up - by action that can include warning others of some bullshit afoot, and making sure that company is seen as a dismal failure.

@wigglytuffitout @Tutanota I hear what you're saying about comparing themselves with the mainstream but truthfully I'd rather a company encrypt my emails and fall short of a few things than openly admit to scanning my personal data, wouldn't you? I mean it's based on trust of course. That can't be helped unless you plan to self host, even then you'll probably self host using software that you haven't developed. There is going to some trust element somewhere...

@salsa20 @Tutanota do you really think that this company - so obviously full of bullshit already, evasive about questions, and so on - is going to actually do what they say?

i mean, if i'm gonna get bamboozled, i'm going to at least look for somebody who can P.T. Barnam themselves into quasi-legitimacy. because if they're as good at encrypting as they are marketing, the only encrypting you're going to get is "we put all your emails printed out in the alley but, like, nobody goes there, yknow?"

@salsa20 @Tutanota by all indications, they're gearing up to be a terrifically shit job. and all they've really said is "trust us, we don't!".

after all, where do they get their money? if it's all free, and they don't use your stuff, then how do they keep the lights on? the hopes and prayers of orphans? you gotta clap your hands like believing in fairies?

especially when they lambast other free services for not really being free, but "uhhh just trust us" for the rest...?

that's a LOL from me

@salsa20 @Tutanota if there's no "we're supported by patreon, by your donations, by this foundation" clear and obvious - but yet, still, a company, with employees, with offices, with expenses, with servers you're using - then it's not really free, is it? they can't give it all away.

so either it's not really free in that there's some cool charges about to hit your account, or... they aren't as honest as they pinkie promise they are.

i don't trust like that. do you?

@wigglytuffitout @Tutanota I think there's some implications that come with "free service" especially when you put it into the context of a 'privacy service' and you're taking the information at face value. Maybe I'm biased since I use them and pay for the service. So I do trust them

@salsa20 @Tutanota well, at least that shows my point that their game is hitting you up for money later a la "free to play games". that, at least, is how they keep the lights on.

you'd probably do better than to trust folks that proclaim how they offer a free service and then, once your foot is in the door, hit you up for money as it suddenly becomes not-so-free.

i for sure wouldn't be confident to say they weren't doing the same takesies-backsies trick on promises of keeping my data secure.

@salsa20 @Tutanota this is a pattern that i'm seeing again, and again, and again, and again on this website.

a service is "free"! it's so ethical! it's made with open-source! it's so ethical! how is it ethical? well they say they're really very ethical. they pinky promise they're doing all these things. ethics!

and, inevitably, people buy into it with the idea that surely these noble tech bros can't lie to them.

then the tech bros smell profit.

@salsa20 @Tutanota most recent example?

purism! a very ethical service that would never share your data, except for those web apps having data trackers, including google's, in them. for months. whoopsie-daisy! and then it took the brave ethical stance of deciding that all moderation is bad, so despite it putting the rest of mastodon in danger, they were going to happily court neo-nazis.

because the alt reich has money. and they want that money.

super ethical! phwoar!

@salsa20 @Tutanota if all you're paying for is their *assurances* that they're doing the right thing - while the company itself acts in dodgy, shady ways, contradicting itself, double-dealing - i think we both know just how valuable those assurances *actually are*. do they actually deserve your loyalty? your defense? your trust? when they're out to dupe you in return?

and there's a phrase to consider as you continue on: "don't throw good money after bad".

@wigglytuffitout @Tutanota let me address your point about drawing customers in then hitting them with subscriptions. I've been a customer for 5 years with them and they've operated for longer, wouldn't you think by now they'd have done what you said? Surely 5 years is long enough to penetrate the market?

Also could you help me understand how tuta is contradictory and shady? How are they out to dupe me, specifically?

@salsa20 @Tutanota well, you're paying for a free service, ain't you?

it's not my fault if you got duped by the web equivalent of a "get a free stay in a resort (as long as you listen to our sales pitch for timeshares)".

they aren't out to dupe you - they already did. you're giving them money, remember? more than that, you've given trust and blind loyalty.

in fact, they duped you so good that you're willing to immediately defend them and do a PR person's job for them. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

@wigglytuffitout @Tutanota clearly there's a misunderstanding here, I'm not giving them free money... You do realize that premiumvoffers more than a free tutanota account, don't you? So I'm not paying for a free service, I'm paying for the extra features.

also what's wrong with paying somebody if they offer a service you want? Is that duping in your eyes too?

I've given trust but not blind loyalty, I don't know where you're pulling this from

@salsa20 @Tutanota the extra features, for a service you started using because it was... free.

free is never free. in this case, they made an investment on you with that "free" to get you in the door, to give them money. and hey - it was a good investment, since they've got you on the line for five whole years.

there ain't nothing wrong for paying for things you like. but a company that is playing that "oh it's free... until you get here" is not operating on high ethics.

@salsa20 @Tutanota it was free - until it wasn't, because that free was getting you in the door to upsell you. it's free in the same way a "makeover party" from the Avon lady is free.

i'd rather just go buy my makeup from a company that sells it to me directly instead of banking on psychological tricks and pressure tactics.

if they have such a loose idea of what an ethical free service is... you really trust them to handle your data ethically like they say they do?

LOL.

@wigglytuffitout @Tutanota tutanota is a business. a business' purpose is to MAKE MONEY, naturally they will find a way to be profitable. I don't understand why that's so uncomfortable. Yes they make money, as I said at the start there is an implication with the word "free". They even responded to you with call it "freemium". Their ethos is unpaid encrypted mail services with paid services for those who want it. It's not hard to grasp.

@salsa20 @Tutanota if they were stating prices up-front, i'd shrug and move on.

saying "free is never free... except for OUR free, because we're more ethical!", and then, well - it's all the same scummy shit currently infecting mobile games? that's what i object to. that's the moral failure here.

willingly subscribing to microtransaction funbuxx or tupperware party tactics as an Ethical Business Model (tm) is the shit that stinks, and you should be suspicious of.

trust me.

i'm Ethical. ;)

@wigglytuffitout @Tutanota they're not suddenly morally devoid for trying to make money

@salsa20 @Tutanota after all, ain't you proof - with your being a customer, giving money to them for 5 years - that the whole thing is just as they said...

...free has never been free.

not even, as tutanota would have it, THEIR free.

you bought it hook, line, and sinker, my friend.